Talk:Igoumenitsa

The name issue

I have edited the formerly cham inhabited places with albnaian names in the lead, along with their greek form. The reason I edited them is WP:NCGN which states that "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted". The sources we have shows that there was a minority in the towns and villages, so there is "a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". It is the same reason that the names are used in Vlora, Berat, Durres, etc, were no greeks live, but there was a ancient greek colony in there. So we shopuld start a disccusion in order to find a solution, avoiding double standards. balkanian (talk) 12:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Cham presence is not sufficiently notable to include the Albanian toponyms here per WP:NCGN. The Chams were a minority in all these places, never a majority. Also the wording is very Albano-POV. If you say "The area was home to Cham Albanians that were expelled" 1) That creates that all the inhabitants were Cham, when in fact the Chams were a minority in all these places, and 2) it creates the imperssion that they are innocent victims, which is Albanian POV. If you are going to mention that the Chams were expelled, you HAVE to mention why they were expelled (collaborating with Nazis). Otherwise, you can't mention that they were "expelled". --Athenean (talk) 13:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, firstly lets start a conversation about the name. The sentence about their presenced I agree that should be reworded, but lats discuss that later. About the name, in parapotamos, igoumenitsa, maragiriti and parga they were the majority, please see the reference of miranda vickers. But, even if they were a minority, WP:NCGN, does not state that they should be majority in order to add their name. Secondly, there still lives a population in Epirus (see Helsinki Report), which speak albanian (they call that shqip not arvanitika). so the name should be added.balkanian (talk) 13:18, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
[www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html the greek helsinki committee raport]balkanian (talk) 13:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Miranda Vickers source doesn't help very much, it's basically a description of the modern dispute with little information of the past, it doesn't state any figures either apart from the 14.000 that live in Saranda, no evidence as to whether Chams were a historical majority in any place. Not much about the history of the region in general. Another thing is how much credibility we should give to an article that is published by a military college. The wiki articles of the cities and towns in Albania you are referring to have an extensive and properly sourced history section as Ioannina or Epirus (region). Anyway i can see that in Durres for example there is a same problem, the arguement for the deletion of the Greek name there is that it is not officially recognized by the state although its history is clearly documented. I see no reason not to add the names the Turkish and Jewish populations also used following the same wikipedia policies. As for the modern Albanian speaking element in Epirus in Cham Albanians there's a source that states that if they exist at all they are very hard to find. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakronian (talk • contribs) 17:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is the same as Himara,Vlora, Berat etc. If you do not put the Albanian name, than we should take off the Greek names on the Albanian cities.--Taulant23 (talk) 21:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Greek names in those articles are mentioned in the history sections anyway. It's simple, provide reliable sources that there was a significant presence of Albanians, either in size or of historical importance in general, in the places in question and add the names. What don't you understand ??? I am repeating, Ioannina, Epirus (region) etc already contain the Albanian names, we can't just add them everywhere cause of your claims.--Zakronian (talk) 00:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Berat and Vlore the greek names are in the lead. In Durres page there is a name section, and thats why there is no name in the lead, neither the Albanian one. In Thesprotia region and in norther part of Preveza prefecture, there were at least 1/3 muslim chams, and we do not know what was the number of orthodox albanians. Please see the study of a greek historian, Γ. Κτιστάκης. He states that there were about 20.000 muslimm chams, in a region that had a population of 70.000. and that there is no official number of orthodox albanians, exept the italian occupation cnesus. "Το 1923 στην Τσαμουριά ζούσαν 20.319 μουσουλμάνοι που είχαν τα αλβανικά ως μητρική γλώσσα19. Το 1925 η αλβανική κυβέρνηση έδωσε τον αριθμό των 25.000 μουσουλμάνων20. Από την απογραφή του 1928 προέκυψε ότι στην Ήπειρο ζούσαν 17.008 μουσουλμάνοι αλβανικής γλώσσας21. Το 1938 αναφέρθηκαν από την Γενική Διοίκηση Ηπείρου 17.311 αλβανομουσουλμάνοι στην περιοχή22. Η επεξεργασία των αποτελεσμάτων του 1940 δεν ολοκληρώθηκε ποτέ αλλά σύμφωνα με μία πηγή οι μουσουλμάνοι της περιοχής ανέρχονταν σε 16.66123. Σύμφωνα με μία άλλη -πιο αξιόπιστη- πηγή, οι μουσουλμάνοι ανέρχονταν σε 21.000 έως 22.00024. Τέλος, οι ιταλοί υπολόγισαν το 1941, κατά τρόπο όμως υπερβολικό, ότι στην περιοχή κατοικούσαν 26.000 χριστιανοί Αλβανοί Τσάμηδες, 28.000 μουσουλμάνοι Αλβανοί Τσάμηδες έναντι μόνο 20.000 Ελλήνων25". Even if there were only 25%, which is the lowest number, there surely was a large minority.balkanian (talk) 11:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't make my self clear, in those articles even if the Greek names weren't in the lead they are mentioned in the history section cause they are a known part of those places' history. Even if someone removes them a passing-by editor might re-add them while reading the history section. Now the articles in question are very limited in general, anyway, in your quoting there is no mentioning of Igoumenitsa, Parga, Parapotamos etc, no specific mentioning of these places, how do we know where they were concetrated ??? From what publication is the Ktistakis figures ? --Zakronian (talk) 19:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We are talking about a certain region. Thesprotia and Preveza, which consist Chameria. The auther explains that they lived in the all region, and most of all he is anti-cham. You can find the hole work here. they were minority in some towns, and majority in some others, but the fact is that they were, they existed and according to WP:NCGN their name should be in the lead.balkanian (talk) 19:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You still don't get the point about wikipedia's name policies, "can be used" or "permitted" is different from "should be used". This is determined by editors. You said it, Thesprotia and Preveza are (large scale) regions, modern prefectures of Greece, Igoumenitsa, Parga, Paramithia etc are cities and towns. There is no conclusion from the sources that their presence was notable in these historical centers. Most of the Cham historiography thing is pushed by Cham organizations the past 15 years or so. Not much to work with, much to be suspicious of. The last website you presented uses the names of these towns to denote the whole geographical zones that Cameria consisted of. There is also a mention of an undetermined number of civic estates, if there were 10 houses in Igoumenitsa that belonged to Chams for example, is this enough reason to add an Albanian name in the city's article ? What we know is that there was a Cham minority spread in Epirus and especially in western Epirus, we also know they mostly occupied themselfs with agriculture, the articles that represent these areas are Epirus, Thesprotia, Preveza Prefecture etc. For more specific places you have to provide more specific sources and numbers.--Zakronian (talk) 23:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[blog.aacl.com/document-of-the-committee-of-cham-albanians this] is the document of Cham Anti-fascist Committee, conducted in 1946, when they were expelled. You can read there were they were majority, or big minority.217.24.247.227 (talk) 12:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please also read this: "Στην διάρκεια του Β' Παγκοσμίου Πολέμου η περιοχή υπέφερε από τα στρατεύματα κατοχής τα οποία κατέστρεψαν εντελώς την Ηγουμενίτσα και συνεργάζονταν με ντόπιους Αλβανοτσάμηδες. Η εκδίωξη τους μετά την απελευθέρωση έφερε ανακατατάξεις και νέους πληθυσμούς από τα ορεινά της Θεσπρωτίας και άλλα μέρη της Ελλάδας, οι οποίοι πύκνωσαν τον πληθυσμό της Ηγουμενίτσας." It is from Igoumenitsa`s official page, igoumenitsa.gr. It says that when chams were expelled there was a riconfiguring of population.balkanian (talk) 12:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Parapotamos was inhabited by Muslim Turk-Albanians until 1944 who were driven off by the rebels (who it is known that they had joined the conquerors)." the official site of the municipality, www.parapotamos.grbalkanian (talk) 12:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Official site of sagiada, sagiada.gr:"Από το 1950 με πυρήνα λίγα σπίτια που φτιάχτηκαν από το κράτος , δημιουργήθηκε το καινούριο χωριό κοντά στη θάλασσα και τον κάμπο που από τα χέρια των Αλβανοτσάμηδων πέρασε σ’ αυτούς και άλλους πρόσφυγες από την Ήπειρο. "balkanian (talk) 13:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

e-sivota.gr:"Το 1850 κατοικούνταν από 40 τουρκοτσιάμικες οικογένειες. Παράγει λάδι, βελανίδια και ψάρια. Ονομαζόταν Μούρτος από το όνομα κάποιου προκρίτου ο οποίος φορολογούσε και λαφυραγωγούσε τα διερχόμενα εμπορικά πλοία επί τουρκοκρατίας. Σήμερα κατοικείται από Έλληνες που ροβόλησαν από τα ορεινά χωριά της Ηπείρου."balkanian (talk) 13:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You see the problem here i guess, only Albanian or Greek sources so far. Nothing neutral and reliable. I will only bother with the latter, one by one:

in igoumenitsa.gr only Graikohori village is specifically mentioned to have a decreased population due to the leave of Chams. In the demographics archive it is clearly stated that Igoumenitsa's population increased while the whole of Thesprotia saw a decrease by 31%, all these from 1913 till 1951. Note that the decrease is not and cannot be attributed only to Chams, many leftists left for bigger cities to avoid persecution and discrimination after the civil war.

in sagiada.gr before the paragraph you copy-pasted here it says : "Το 1943 οι Γερμανοί μαζί με τους Αλβανοτσάμηδες του γειτονικού μουσουλμανικού χωριού Λιόψη, έκαψαν το χωριό και οι κάτοικοί του σκορπίστηκαν στα χωριά προς τα βόρεια ενώ όταν τέλειωσε ο πόλεμος οδηγήθηκαν από το στρατό στην Κέρκυρα για την περίοδο του εμφύλιου. Γύρισαν λίγο πριν τη λήξη τους αλλά δεν τους επέτρεψαν να κατοικήσουν στο παλιό χωριό αλλά σε καλύβες στην παραλία."

From the two paragraphs we understand that the old village was destroyed by the Germans in collaboration with the Chams that inhabited the nearby village of Liopsi. The new village was created near the sea and a part of the land used was fields owned by Chams. So no Cham village existed in the new location, only plains, and we know that because of their religion they had the biggest and best pieces of land from the Ottoman period although they were an overall minority, a part of their land was confiscated before WW2 but anyway, i just mentioned it as a hint.

in parapotamos.gr : we can conclude that the village was inhabited by Chams, and they probably were a majority.

There is no article for Sivota, the site states that in 1850 it was a small Cham village. Should we link Sivota with some other place ?

To my understanding only Parapotamos should have an Albanian name in the lead, funny, it's the only name that's completely different, all the other are clear transliterations or are closely connected with the Greek ones. I refrain from any further changes to the names for now, if you find any serious book about the issue please mention it here. I don't think the name additions you propose will stand for long. --Zakronian (talk) 01:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On syvota, see e-syvota.gr and see the history section. On the other hand, on Igoumenitsa, there is a reference too. It says that there were albanians in Igoumenitsa (who collaborated with nazi). About Sagiada, the village was rebuilt nearby, but it is not a new village, it is a rebuilt village. On Parapotamos, we can conculde that the village was entirely albanian, by the way. This are official greek sources, but I agree with you that they are not reliable. But, they would not increase the number of chams, they would decrease it, so they may be referenced in here. I don`t know if I made my point clear?balkanian (talk) 12:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

lol, i was wrong both for Parapotamos and Syvota, the articles are for the modern municipalities, not the villages from which they took their names, have you heard of the recent "Kapodistrias plan" ? where e.g. 10 villages are "united" in one municipality for practical reasons. Syvota municipality has another village as its administrative center, Plataria. Now for Igoumenitsa, no, the only positive conclusion about notable Cham presence is in Graikohori village which is not part of the town. From your quoting there is nothing to conclude, it speaks about the area not the town, which btw was an insignificant group of settlements untill the end of the first half of the 20th century, besides this there are NO figures connected with the phrase you claim as proof. As for Sagiada yes it is a rebuilt village, neither the new village nor the old one is linked with important Cham presence, the only thing it says is that there was a nearby Cham village named Liopsi, from which the Germans got help, and that some Cham owned land was used after Chams had left, not Cham houses, just fields. So you're free from me to make new articles about Graikohori, Parapotamos, Syvota and Liopsi villages and add any Albanian names you have. If you still can't accept the fact, then ask help from an administrator. I believe i am fair with the intepretations, ofcourse the ideal thing would be to have sources that don't need any intepretation, hard to understand when you have passed the OR limit. --Zakronian (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

About Parapotamos, the official site of the municipality states that, so if you do not want to add the albanian name in wiki, ask the municipality to get rid of the sentence (joke). More references: In the town of Igoumenitsa, Albanian language is still spoken, by a minority of population. by miranda vickers and james pettifer. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 15:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

About Filiates: The muslim albanian town of Filiates. Badlands - Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania - Page 120, Tom Winnifirth, ISBN 0715632019, 9780715632017 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 15:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The market towns of Filiates and Paramythia were mainly Albanian in speech", and this is by your loved NGL Hammond, in his book "Epirus: The Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas", page 27balkanian (talk) 15:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hammond is a worthy source, i will be able to verify it. For the rest about Parapotamos i can't explain better than i already have. What's the new arguement about Igoumenitsa ? That a sizeable minority lives there now ? or that a mentioning of a modern Albanian speaking group is proof of a notable Cham presence in the past ? You can't derive any of the two. --Zakronian (talk) 04:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so we agreed about Filiates and Paramythia, sourced with Hammond, don`t we? About Parapotamos, I got your point, but the official site of the municipality in its history section, says about the chams. This site, contains history about the municipality, not just the village, or town. So, cham albanians are mentioned in municipality level, and the name is relevant. About Igoumenitsa, we have tow reasons to add the name. FIrstly, that there was an albanian minority (the chams), for whom we do not have a source about the number. and secondly, there is still an albanian-speaking (maybe having a greek seld identification), so the name should be added as local variant of the town.217.24.247.227 (talk) 15:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC) The above one is me.balkanian (talk) 16:36, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes i believe we can use it as source, it would be helpfull if you quoted whatever text you think is relevant in the page the phrase above is mentioned, as i said i will be able to check it myself in the near future, be sure you mention the right page number in the reference. For Parapotamos it would not be accurate to add an Albanian name to a modern municipality that wasn't created from a single village, if you knew about the "Kapodistrias plan" you could understand better, my village in Ioannina for example belongs to a new municipality which took its name from an ancient city, the area it existed is more than 15 kilometers from my village, more or less the same distance seperates it from other villages of the same municipality. You can enrich the article and add it while mentioning Parapotamos village. Lastly, in Igoumenitsa i know for certain that if it really exists the Albanian speaking group is limited, probably some elderly people from the area's villages, you can't in any way connect this mentioning with a current or past notability without speculation. You can always request a third opinion on these matters. --Zakronian (talk) 01:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know about "Kapodistria plan", but this is not my point. My point is that if a official website of a municipality states that "Parapotamos was inhabited by cham albanians", then "Parapotamos" would refer to the municipality, not only to the village, because it is the historical section of the municipalities website. about Igoumenitsa, the source states that there is still albanian speaking minority. We cannot assume that this is small or big minority, but we can assume that there is a minority. If there is a minority according to WP:NCGN, we should mention the name.balkanian (talk) 10:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but i can't follow you anymore, how can it talk about a municipality when there wasn't any municipality, it is tiring to argue about every tiny margin you find to make speculations. Same goes for Igoumenitsa. You'll have to ask for help from an administrator who is interested or something, if you insist. I have nothing else to add for these sources.--Zakronian (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

About Igoumenitsa see also this, this and a lot of others.balkanian (talk) 11:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The book's topic is not closely related to the matter but i think Rodogno is a reliable source, the statement is clear and i might be able to check his primary sources also. No problem with adding the reference from me. As for the other link, well, what should i say about it ? --Zakronian (talk) 19:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Having read the discussion, I am still not convinced that the Albanian name should be included per WP:NCGN. I have yet to see a source that says that the Cham presence in the city of Igoumenitsa is notable. While there were Cham villages in the area, Igoumenitsa to my knowledge has always been a Greek city. For those villages where Chams used to be a majority, we can include the Albanian name. Otherwise, if the Cham presence was minor, as is the case here, it should be removed. --Athenean (talk) 16:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have tow references. The first states that there was a large albanian minority in Igoumenitsa, and the second that the albanian language is still used in the town. For every one of this reasons the name should be included as per WP:NCGNbalkanian (talk) 16:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These two [2], [3]? You must be joking. The first is a book that is completely off-topic, and the second is a total joke. You will need better sources than that to prove there are indigenous Albanian speakers in town. Sources need to be reliable, and verifiable. A cursory search of "albanians igoumenitsa" on google books is not a reliable sourcing. --Athenean (talk) 17:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, its not them. It is this, which is a study about albanians in Greece, by James Pettifer and Miranda Vickers, and the first you mentioned, which is not out of topic, but a historical book.balkanian (talk) 17:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per my reasoning at Talk:Preveza, I would like to think this issue has been settled once and for all. Moved it to the history section, since it has some relevance, but too few sources use for it to be placed in the lead. I really hope this is the end of it. Athenean (talk) 05:09, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not the same so your reasoning isn't appliable to it. You should stop focusing on the name of a minority and do something to improve the article rather than causing disruption over the name.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:25, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike you, I have improved the article in the past. Seems like the one who is obsessing and being disruptive is you. I suggest you find a better way of spending your time. Athenean (talk) 06:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which who burned the chams or Greeks igoumenitsa (Gumenica)

I removed the propaganda which I never heard about Chams burning their own city, The city was burned by zerva's troops in 1944 who came to terrorize the population there which were Ethnic albanian chams and ethnically cleans the city but whole part of Southern Epir (Chameria) please if anyone wants to make propaganda against poor innocent people that got nothing to do with nazi germans go in some other sites not in Wiki which is supposed to be a serious site not a HATE site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.99.251.53 (talk) 17:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the recent deletion of sourced material. Please take a look at wp:whatiswikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 19:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Native born person

It's weird to claim that a person was born in this settlement while the correspondent article does not cite this fact.Alexikoua (talk) 20:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicting claims on language, wouldn't verify

The following edit claimed it to be Arvanitika dialect [4] and then the other edit changed it to a nameless dialect,[5] while in the edit summary the editor claimed that it is Cham dialect. The quote from the source and the page number are missing and wouldn't be verified. So we don't know if it is Arvanitika, or Cham? The edit was reinstated without consensus and without providing the necessary information required for verification.

I want WP:GOODFAITH believe that Alltan's ignoring of the "No consensus for this edit" [6] was merely a mistake of the moment and not a sign suggesting a persistent behavior of ignoring the importance of seeking consensus for disputed edits. The unverified edit will be removed again as there is no consensus for inclusion unless the editor provides the necessary quote and page number for verification. If the edit is reinstated without seeking WP:CONSENSUS by providing the quote and page number necessary for WP:VERIFICATION. then this will be considered disruptive case of brute-forcing at the expense of WP:ONUS and I will inform admin Cullen.

Edit: Added {{which}} tag as well [7]. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:39, 30 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I have read, there has never been an Arvanite community in Igoumenitsa, or in Tsamouria for that matter. Arvanites are the Arvanitika-speaking communities south of Thessaly and Epirus. To say their dialect is spoken here implies a migration of them from Attica, Boeotia etc. No such migration has ever been talked about. It is much more likely the author is describing the remnant Cham dialect, which for socio-political reasons has come to be also called Arvanitika, mostly by Greek-speakers. The same thing has happened in Plikati, Flampouro, the Albanian communities in Thrace etc. I do not think Wikipedia needs to follow these "misnomers" for lack of a better term, as we already know through research which groups are Arvanitika speaking and which are Tosk/Lab/Cham-speaking. In the same way, there are countless sources which describe "Albanian villages of Attica/Argolida/Andros" etc. But these are simply referring to Arvanite communities. I would like to read the source further however, which is why I added the [page needed] template. Preferably there should also be a quote to see the deeper context of the authors argument. If @AlexBachmann can be so nice to provide these it would be very helpful.
By the way, I appreciate you assuming a little bit of good faith. We all know how to contact admins, but its' really not about that. We can go through one TP discussion without administrative involvement. With you if I may say I hope to have somewhat reasonable discussions on such matters. Alltan (talk) 00:18, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind the alternate names on lede, and I am sure that you don't mind me asking for quote and page number before I consent to that. There is no need for actual discussion once these two bits of information are provided. The edit may then be restored without any further need for discussions. The only reason I would want to discuss it is in the case I spot any discrepancy between what the source does state, and the edit. Good day. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 00:27, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that. But what I am saying is that there are cases where authors will use Arvanite/Albanian interchangeably, and we have to be aware of the deeper historical context of an area in question so as to not provide inaccurate information to the reader, say through using incorrect linguistic terminology. Alltan (talk) 00:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If the author states it is Arvanitika, then the article will reflect on it, because Arvanitika is indeed spoken in Igoumenitsa, whose municipality, the Municipality of Igoumenitsa, includes historical Arvanite settlements such as Kastri which is only 3km away from Igoumenitsa. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 07:19, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are no Arvanites in Epirus. They are just Orthodox Albanian Chams/Labs/Tosks who say they are Arvanite so people don't call them Alvanos, but they have no specific cultural links to the Arvanites of southern Greece. Alltan (talk) 19:18, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but if the people self-identify as Arvanites and the source confirms that, then the least Wikipedia can do is to respect it. The same is true for Orthodox Chams as well. Also I wouldn't be surprised if sources state both. That there are Arvanites isn't mutually exclusive with Orthodox Chams anyway. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 19:47, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Their national self-identification is irrelevant though. They are in the emic sense Arvanites, but in the etic sense Chams (unless there is a source which says Arvanites migrated here). Regardless, we can't say they are Arvanitika speakers because they simply aren't. They (most likely, will have to see the full quoute) speak Cham or maybe if we consider it a separate dialect, Souliotic. Alltan (talk) 20:21, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the quote "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants." p.238 AlexBachmann (talk) 21:14, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry for writing "Arvanites", I took it from the article Chameria. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:15, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@AlexBachmann, feel free to add the alternate name to the lede, and make sure to add both the page and quote to the source in the main body, so that future editors can verify it. @Alltan, I prefer we stick to what the provided sources say. Nothing less, nothing more. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 21:20, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think the author is refering to the Cham-Dialect. Because a few sentences before the quote, the author states "There was an internal division in the Cham world between coast-dwellers, who tended to be rich Muslim beys who prospered on the food and olive export trade to Corfu, and the mountain people who were more often Christian and always poorer." AlexBachmann (talk) 21:24, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also I found another source: "Aside from the Arvanitika settlements themselves, there are speakers of southern Albanian dialects, in particular Çamërian, in [...] Igoumenitsa, and Filiates [...]. " Historical Dictionary of Albania, Robert Elsie, 2010, 9780810873803 AlexBachmann (talk) 21:34, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the source says "around Igoumenitsa", not in Igoumenitsa itself. Khirurg (talk) 21:38, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Khirurg It does not. There are two sources. it just says "Igoumenitsa", not around or something similar. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:44, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can I have the full sentences quoted from both sources about Igoumenitsa please? Without any [...] in them. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 21:45, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Source 1: "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants."
Source 2: "Aside from the Arvanitika settlements themselves, there are speakers of southern Albanian dialects, in particular Çamërian, in many settlements along the border region, from Florina (Alb. Follorina) and Kastoria (Alb. Kosturi) in the east, to Parga (Alb. Parga), Igoumenitsa (Alb. Gumenica), and Filiates (Alb. Filati) in the west on the Ionian Sea." AlexBachmann (talk) 21:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Elsie's is viewable online [8]. On p. 264 it says: To the south in Greece, there are traditional settlements of Camerian dialect speakers, in particular around Igoumenitsa and Parga in Epirus.. Since he speaks of multiple settlements, he is doubtless referring to Margariti, Agia, Ammoudia, etc. But he doesn't say in Parga or Igoumenitsa itself. Khirurg (talk) 21:54, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, SilentResident, Alex even added the Albanian name in the lede of Kastoria [9], which is clearly undue. Khirurg (talk) 21:56, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Khirurg, Kastoria has nothing to do with Igoumenitsa now. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:57, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
He's refering to "traditional settlements of Chamerian dialect speakers". On p. 173, it says: "Aside from the Arvanitika settlements themselves, there are speakers of southern Albanian dialects, in particular Çamërian, in many settlements along the border region, from Florina (Alb. Follorina) and Kastoria (Alb. Kosturi) in the east, to Parga (Alb. Parga), Igoumenitsa (Alb. Gumenica), and Filiates (Alb. Filati) in the west on the Ionian Sea" AlexBachmann (talk) 21:57, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AlexBachmann: which source (i e. the book title, author and page) does say "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants"? Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pettifer, James (2007). The Albanian question : reshaping the Balkans. Miranda Vickers. London: I.B. Tauris. p. 238. ISBN 978-1-4416-4114-4.AlexBachmann (talk) 22:02, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That source is reliable, focused on Albanian populations, and can be used to back the statement that there some in Igoumenitsa itself speak Albanian. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:04, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's also 15+ years old, and given that the language is not taught anywhere and its use no encouraged, it may no longer be true. Khirurg (talk) 22:08, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Find a source that states that Albanian is completely extinct in Igoumenitsa. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:10, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not a problem at all, it can be written as "James Pettifer and Miranda Vickers (2007) noted the presence of an Albanian-speaking minority in Igoumenitsa". Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:13, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that RS confirms the use of Albanian by a small minority, then I don't see a problem mentioning it. Igoumenitsa lacks a dedicated Names section, so names may be added on lede unless such a section is created on the main body. What do editors here want? Alex, by the way, do not start adding names on all articles like how you did at Kastoria. If articles have 3 or more alternate names, they ought to go to the Names section instead. The Manual of Style - Alternative Names states that If there are three or more alternative names, or if there is something notable about the names themselves, they may be moved to and discussed in a separate section with a title such as "Names" or "Etymology".. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 22:17, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I know this has nothing to do with Igoumenitsa, but on Parga, Khirurg is also against the mention of the Albanian name. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:19, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SilentResident There is actually a dedicated name section, and the Albanian name is already mentioned in there (in addition to the old name of Γραβα, the Ottoman name Resadiye, and the Italian name Gomenizza). So that's at least 4 alternate names. Khirurg (talk) 22:23, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neither Turkish nor Italian is spoken in the city. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:27, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the article is also about the municipality... AlexBachmann (talk) 22:33, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The are separate articles for the municipal units. The "municipality" trick is not going to work. The Albanian name is not used by 10% or more English language sources, per WP:NCGN. WP:NCGN states: Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information. Two or three alternative names can be mentioned in the first line of the article; it is general Wikipedia practice to bold them so they stand out. If there are more names than this, or the lead section is cluttered, a separate paragraph on the names of the place is often a good idea. It's clearly not the case here, and even more so in Parga. But I'm talking to someone who did this. Khirurg (talk) 22:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
About Kastoria, I don't think it can be equated to cases of formerly Albanian speaking towns in Thespriotia, so I don't agree on adding the Albanian name there. At least if we only have 1 source. Alltan (talk) 22:35, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Turkish isn't spoken in Igoumenitsa, while Italiot is spoken, and Italy maintains a Consulate there as well. As is Arvanitika. If I am not mistaken, there is an Aromanian community in the city too, especially at the Graikochori district. However I do not have sources confirming whether the Aromanians living there still maintain their language. For now I suggest that the Alternate Albanian name is added on lede along with Italian one, and if editors want to add more names in the future, they are welcome to stick to the solution of the Names section instead per Manual of Style - Alternative Names.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 22:35, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Arvanitika is not spoken in Igoumenitsa. There is also no source for Italian being spoken there. Alltan (talk) 22:37, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is wp:NCGN, @Alltan: you need to stop behaving like wp:IDHT. Is the Albanian form used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature? Alexikoua (talk) 03:10, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, about what Alltan said, I looked the entire morning for sources confirming Italian and Aromanian languages in Igoumenitsa and I wouldn't find any. This means Alltan is right since the only sources I found was the small Italian heritage the town has, including the Venetian Castle of Igoumenitsa (which is not even mentioned on the article at all). Therefore, considering these findings, and to correct myself on what i have stated above: the Italian and Aromanian names may not be mentioned on the lede, only in the Names section.
Secondly, about what Alexikoua has pointed to, I looked for the prominence of the alternate names in the sources and I found that: Igoumenitsa netted 20,500 results while Gumenicë netted 364 results only which is a really low 1.7% percentage. This means Alexikoua is right as there is an issue with the alternative name not being prominent in the sources. Prominence of alternate names in sources is a factor that I tend to take seriously when I am adding an alternative name to an article in Wikipedia, like how I have done recently at Alexandroupolis's article where I added the alternate names [10] after ensuring they are used by an at least significant number of sources (10% or more) in the English literature. And same is true for the Diapontian Islands where I have initiated a Page Move [11] after ensuring that the term Diapontian is indeed the English one and is used by at least a 10% of the sources.
Considering the above facts, and in line with the guidelines, to correct myself again, I support now having the alternative names for Igoumenitsa be mentioned on Names section instead of the Lead. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 10:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SilentResident I believe you were misled @Alexikoua's selective citation of the naming convention. The full statement is: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted" (see here:[12]).
Albanian was spoken in this town by a significant portion of the population and today a minority still speaks it there, while the rest are in Albania since WWII. Çerçok (talk) 11:26, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh. All right. Copy-pasting the general guideline here for everybody's convenience and to avoid any zig-zags on the matter: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted." In light of this, then the Albanian name should be permitted on lede. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 12:00, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Cercok: Take into account that this definition means that Albanians cities such as Korce, Vlore, Berat, where Greek speakers are still found will have the Greek alternative name at first line there. In the case of Igoumenitsa Winnifrith stated there is no Albanian speech there. Alexikoua (talk) 21:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alltan appears to be in a desperate rv-only strategy now. By the way Winnifrith states that there no Albanian speakers found at modern times. Alexikoua (talk) 21:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Other sources say otherwise. And one question: How should Winnifrith find out if there aren't any Albanian-speakers left? Is he a RS? Has he gone to every household and asked if they speak Albanian? Do you understand my point? The most here agree that the Albanian name should be in the lede. We all know that there are still Christian Chams. Some sources from the year 2000 amout them to 40.000 (Miranda Vickers)!
You both Alexikoua as Khirurg are visibly against the Albanian names in the lede. WP:POV AlexBachmann (talk) 23:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am not refering to the quote that there should be the name if a group of people used to inhabit the place, but I'm refering to the active Albanian population in whole western Epirus. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:28, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And there is an active and very prominent population in Gjirokaster, but the Greek name is only in the name section, not the lede. And that is fine, I'm ok with that, but we can't have double standards. The Albanian name is in the Name section, and in my opinion that is sufficient, especially considering how hard it is to find sources regarding the supposed Albanian-speaking population in town. Khirurg (talk) 02:35, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, please tag me properly if you want to refer to me. The main point is not the residing population (that would require every Greek town to have Albanian alternative names due to Albanians living there). The main point is that there is a community in Albania who spoke Albanian there until WWII and still uses the name Gumenice, that is why it is relevant. I am not aware of any group of community of Greek speakers from Korce, Berat, etc. who have left and are today using the town's names in Greek. That said, as long as this distinction is considered, I am open to any idea about how to name settlements in both Albania and Greece avoiding double-standards. Çerçok (talk) 08:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am disappointed now to find that there have been inconsistencies ("double standards") in the Naming Convention's application among towns in the two Topic Areas. I recommend that editors who asked for the application of the general guideline here: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted.", to do the same for other cities in the area, such as Gjirokaster. Or else I will believe this to be a WP:BadFaith case of Double Standards. I don't even want to read the past conversations on those article's talk pages and rather propose here a Gordian knot-cutting proposal that everybody involved in this dispute, respects the guideline, and thus, add Albanian names in Greek towns where Albanian populations are still living, and add Greek names in Albanian towns where Greek populations are still living. Who does agree with me in keeping the articles in an area consistent with each other and in line with the Wikipedia's Naming Conventions regarding Alternate Names? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 08:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that there needs to be uniformity, but I disagree on the still living criterion. Past populations are relevant too. The part that is open to interpretation here is how large should this population be. Çerçok (talk) 10:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes of course. I didn't meant the "still living" as mutually exclusive with the "lived". However, since we are dealing with settlements of varying sizes here, the editors will have to agree that a settlement's size is a reasonable factor in determining whether the other language names may be mentioned on the lede. The villages and towns where communities are smaller and their composition is smaller, may not have their ledes be treated the same way as large cities and metropolises where several groups lived, and the societies are multicultural by nature and thus a lede may not be comfortable to reflect them all - for large cities and metropolises, a Names section is almost always the rule.
Because I am aware that this issue is plaguing the topic area for years (correct me on that, but I think I remember disputes similar to this happening again in the past), and one reason it wasn't resolved thus far, I presume is because criteria tend to be another Gordian knot, right? This reduces any prospects for agreeing for the application of the Naming conventions. Considering this, can't we just agree to the Naming Convention's implementation and have alternate names displayed on Lede for villages and towns, and for large cities and metropolises have the Names section instead? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:32, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we should agree on a more specific naming policy, within the existing convention guideline. My first proposition is that if the settlement is multi-ethnic, then only 2 or 3 names should be listed, the ones of the most widely spoken languages. This is the number suggested by the guidelines in general, so we can apply it here. Second, I think size should be relative to the settlement itself, for example if a language is spoken by over 15% (or any other % we can agree on) of the inhabitants, or 15% of the inhabitants used to speak it but have left and still still exist as a community elsewhere (like the Chams), the name should be stated in the lede. Çerçok (talk) 13:21, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Percentage criteria are unrealistic I am afraid. Especially for the Greek settlements considering that Greece, much like the rest of the EU, doesn't ask for people's ethnic origins or language in the population censuses. Only nationalities. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 15:23, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What do you propose then? Çerçok (talk) 15:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I propose that we stick to the Naming Convention without making things more complicated, and thus give room to POV-pushers to undermine it. With the convention in mind, we only have to check whether a language is recorded in at least 10% of the sources and then use it on lede, or the group has been recorded to have lived there. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 15:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Çerçok: Ethnic minorities are also found in Greece and are fully recognized. As far I can remember in the census of 1989 the Cham minority counted c. 50 individuals that are found all over the country. On the other hand Albania revokes the minority status if someone is found outside its so-called "minority zones".Alexikoua (talk) 00:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, they are not. But it is irrelevant to the discussion. Çerçok (talk) 01:36, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ethnic minorities are also found in Greece and are fully recognized. are you kidding me right now? Also, Albania's minority rights are not comparable to Greece's by any means. Perhaps Turkey's are. Super Ψ Dro 14:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Do you actually have anything meaningful to contribute to this discussion, or are you just here for polemics? Comparing Greece's treatment of minorities with that of Turkey, where minorities are actively persecuted, is not only deeply ignorant, but also deliberately provocative and incendiary (even more so since it's not related to this discussion). You comment has crossed the line and you should strike it as a sign of good faith. This is not the place for you to air your grievances against Greece. Khirurg (talk) 04:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that these criteria are too loose. There are Albanians living in Athens but if you ask me the Albanian name of the town is not necessary for the lead. Çerçok (talk) 01:40, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the "used to inhabit" criterion is not suitable for these cases. It's vague and hard to establish and can lead to all kind of absurdities. Khirurg (talk) 03:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For which cases? The distinction is arbitrary. Çerçok (talk) 10:08, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment: I think User:Super Dromaeosaurus should strike their following WP:BADFAITH comment: "are you kidding me right now? Also, Albania's minority rights are not comparable to Greece's by any means. Perhaps Turkey's are." I am presenting here the Civil Liberties and Religious Freedom Indexes for the year 2021 so that the Wikipedia community can assess them and see how Super Dromaeosaurus's statements about the human rights/religious rights situation in countries is indeed as comparable as the editor claims to be:
    Civil Liberties Index 2021
    The Religious Freedom In The World Report 2021
    Global Freedom Index 2021
    Democracy Index 2021
    Such statements by Super Dromaeosaurus are unproductive and unhelpful. They are welcome to criticize governments and policies if they like, provided that the article's subject is relevant to these policies and there are NPOV issues about covering them, but when the editors speak negatively about countries as whole, it can be seen as rude and unhelpful not only to the discussion, but to the overall climate of civility, trust, understanding and cooperation that was supposed to prevail in the community. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 09:56, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alexikoua complained about minority rights in Albania while defending those in Greece (and SD responsed to him), and Khirurg complained about "persecution" in Turkey. Why is only SD's comment that concerns you? Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:45, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Because correct me if I am wrong, Ktrimi991, but the rest of you have long been involved into disagreements about the situation of minorities in the respective countries, and you have actual participation to the discussions about Greeks in Albania and Albanians in Greece in the various Talk pages. Right? On the other hand, Super Dromaeosaurus who never participated in this Talk Page previously, just popped-in there [13] to make a WP:BADFAITH statement [14] targeting countries without reason, just like that. Nothing else. No actual talk page participation about the disputed content, nothing. His only involvement wasn't to mention on content or help find a solution to the disagreements you are having, only to speak negatively of countries. I don't know how does this does look to you, Ktrimi, but yours, Khirurg's and Alexikoua's actual participation in the talk page discussion here doesn't seem "comparable" (if I may adopt Super Dromaeosaurus's wording), in my eyes, to what Super Dromaeosaurus did here with the comment of theirs. So yes, excuse me, but it is reasonable that I feel uncomfortable with that kind of behavior. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 11:23, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This whole off-topic discussion started with Alexikoua's inaccurate remark. Let's go back to topic. Çerçok (talk) 11:28, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:51, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will not further argue about this here and make any comment after this one on this topic as it is true this is not related to the discussion. But I am not sure how do the links given above by SilentResident refute my comment. The context was ethnic minority rights. I will use this chance to remind that Greece still hasn't signed the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, that it only recognizes an ambiguous multiethnic Muslim minority (i. e., the claim that is all minorities in Greece are recognized is outright false) and only due to a century-old treaty, and that figures such as Sotiris Bletsas have been persecuted in Greece for trying to defend minority rights in the country. I will refrain from making such comments provided that other users do not make false statements in a serious discussion. And I struck Turkey's part as a sign of good faith. I stand by the rest I said, which clearly doesn't constitute a negative comment about Greece "as a whole". Super Ψ Dro 13:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Super Dromaeosaurus: Can you tell me how many state-sponsored Aromanian schools are operating in Albania?Alexikoua (talk) 03:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
At least one in Selenicë [15]. Albania only recognized the Aromanian minority in 2017. It is not as advanced as North Macedonia for example on this issue. Note that Aromanians can also use their languages in churches at Moscopole and Korçë. I'd be surprised if Aromanian, or any minority language, was spoken at any church in Greece. Super Ψ Dro 13:57, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a matter of minorities: modern Greek is also not spoken at any church in Greece.Alexikoua (talk) 04:58, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User:Super Dromaeosaurus, the churches aren't an accurate measure of the people's language rights because even Modern Greek is banned (literally) in the Churches.[16] The Sign Language isn't used either. The liturgical language of the services in the Churches is the Koine and the adherents are having a hard time understanding it since it isn't mutually intelligible with the Modern.[17] --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 00:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, AlexBachmann, you are reminded that no country has a clean slate about their past. Secondly, I will urge that everybody here, including AlexBachmann, Alexikoua, Super Dromaeosaurus, and Khirurg stop this, because WP:NORACISTS and WP:NOTADVOCACY. That is to cease targeting nations or countries of editors to promote a propagandistic narrative about a group being oppressed. This is an extremely unproductive and unhelpful. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:44, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
AlexBachmann: needless to say you need to stay off topic, you also need to follow wp:WHATWIKIPEDIAISNOT.Alexikoua (talk) 00:06, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since we are talking about Igoumenitsa and racism, a couple of additions are here needed, in particurlar crimes by Cham bands (executions, murders, looting) perpetrated in collaboration with the Axis forces .Alexikoua (talk) 00:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, what makes a report submitted in 1945 to the UN [[18]] wp:RS? Imagine to add plenty of similar reports by various Greek representative on the issues of the Greek minority of Northern Epirus.Alexikoua (talk) 02:15, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you have anything to do but denying the Cham massacre? You know exactly what the EDES did. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:13, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you have RS that can support those events you claim and are related to Igoumenitsa go on.Alexikoua (talk) 02:41, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name section

The name section appears in need of corrections & upgrades since the current text isn't supported by the available inline refenrence.Alexikoua (talk) 02:40, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By the way the world of Greek origin "γράβα" should not be misspelled with the Albanian "γκράβα". Alexikoua (talk) 04:38, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
About the alternative names I just remind that wp:NCGN it is recommended to have a name section if there are at least three alternate names. Well since there is one I wonder why there should be a selective mention on the first line of the lead.Alexikoua (talk) 23:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, what about Delvina, Saranda, Gjirokastra? No double standards. AlexBachmann (talk) 12:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All of those cities have large, living Greek minorities in them. Igoumenitsa is different. There are no double standards whatsoever. Khirurg (talk) 15:09, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Igoumenitsa has an Albanian minority. In case you haven't noticed, there was a big discussion above this section about that. Since that it has freezed. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't. Not a single sources says there is an "Albanian minority". The Chams were expelled 80 years ago, and that's that. Time to move on. Khirurg (talk) 00:43, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pettifer, James (2007). The Albanian question: reshaping the Balkans. Miranda Vickers. London: I.B. Tauris. p. 238, Elsie, Robert (2010). Historical dictionary of Albania. Lanham: Scarecrow Press. p. 173. I think it's time for you to refresh your recollection and see who has actually to move on and who doesn't. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where do they state there is an "Albanian minority" in Igoumenitsa? You tried the same thing at Ioannina and it went nowhere, the only thing you managed was to waste everybody's time and yours. Same thing here. Khirurg (talk) 00:09, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants" WP:HUH? AlexBachmann (talk) 12:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all. Even those people that still speak Albanian (and there aren't many nowadays, mostly elderly), no longer identify as Albanian, but as Greeks. See this source:[19] Speaking Albanian, for example, is not a predictor with respect to other matters of identity .. There are also long standing Christian Albanian (or Arvanitika speaking) communities both in Epirus and the Florina district of Macedonia with unquestioned identification with the Greek nation. Totally different situation from the Greeks in Albania, who identify as Greeks. Khirurg (talk) 15:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Not at all"? So you just say the source is false without any reason? How they identify is irrelevant, they speak it and use the name. Just for the record: We've agreed to put the Albanian name on cities/villages with an Albanian population in Epirus. AlexBachmann (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where did I say "source is false without any reason"? The "Not at all" was directed at the accusation of WP:DIS towards me. How they identify is critically important. If they identify as Greek, they are Greek, not Albanian. If I identify as Greek but speak English, does that make me English? And no, I don't recall that we have agreed to put the Albanian name on cities/villages with an Albanian population in Epirus, besides the fact that Igoumenitsa does not have such a population. I would also like to remind you that the Greek name is missing from Gjirokaster, despite the large Greek minority there. Khirurg (talk) 18:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't found about Gjirokastra until now. The WP:HUH? was because you wrote "Where do they state there is an "Albanian minority" in Igoumenitsa?" even though the sources say they speak Albanian. But all right, if Gjirokastra is like that, Imma let this go. AlexBachmann (talk) 18:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]