Talk:Marxist cultural analysis/Archive 3

I noticed all the activity in my newsfeed and came over to see what was going on. Mostly I was just struck again by how underdeveloped this article is. It's not an accident that editors have contemplated a merge on more than one occasion (a suggestion to which I am at least sympathetic).

With this in mind, could anyone suggest a high-quality overview source that might help determine what thinkers (or what topics, if we wanted to structure it that way) ought to be included?

For instance, I don't really know Trotsky's work, but just to see if it might provide something useful to the discussion above, I checked the TOC of Marxist Literary Theory: A Reader (1996) edited by Terry Eagleton and Drew Milne. It does include Trotsky, and the editors' brief intro made what seems to me like a compelling case for his inclusion. (If I can get a good scan with my phone, I'll share it.)

But the reason for this post is to share that the TOC of this anthology (23 figures, presented chronologically [1]) looks a lot a survey of what I would expect to be included in this article. It would not take a lot to go through a work like this and write the main body of the article sourced entirely to the editors' synopses (bonus points for checking them against another reference source!). The shortcomings of such a method are obvious, but that could be acknowledged here with encouragement to editors to improve the coverage of whatever parts they care about. There would at least be a rough draft of a fuller and more cohesive article to work from.

This would not, of course, put an end to the lengthy talk page discussions, but it might steer them in a more productive direction.

To be clear, I'm not volunteering to do this at this time. I am just curious what others think of the idea. Also: suggestions for appropriately short and selective sources would be most welcome. I picked this one for no other reason than that I have a copy on my shelves. Something more recent and more readily available online would easier to work with and discuss.

Cheers, Patrick (talk) 19:39, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we don't have the resources for that level of inclusionism, I think part of the problem with this article is that it was created after the struggles at Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory as to not close down the possibility of making a genuine "cultural Marxism" article from a leftwing perspective... and that the main conflicts for the future of this article will be based around displaying an aesthetic distance from Marxism, for each author raised on the page.

Given that The Frankfurt School went out of their way to criticize Soviet Marxism, and to separate themselves from Orthodox Marxism (to the point that the Neo-Marxism stub mentions they didn't call themselves Neo-Marxists at all), they shouldn't be linked so strongly to Marxism (a difficult task given the title of the article).

Trotsky brings them too close to Marxism, as does the sidebar. This is why I raised the various academic/professional criticisms in the previous section as to whether their work can still be counted as Marxist, or whether at some point in cultural analysis it just becomes an extension of neoliberal Capitalism (as Marcuse suggests in One-Dimensional Man). Negotiating that distance from Marxism proper is the problem. The fact that most of the authors mentioned are Neo-Marxist, but the title is "Marxist cultural analysis" is the problem. The question of whether a "Marxist cultural analysis" is possible when Marx didn't write at length on the topic, is the problem. We're living in a Marxist contradiction when writing this article.

Given the contradictions in this task the aesthetic distance from Marxism will remain the problem, which is why I prefer a practical and exclusionist model, that focuses on a modern post-WW2 understanding of a globalized, industrialized, and a multi-media savvy analysis of culture (eg. analysis which explicitly references hegemony, and the mechanical reproduction/industrialization of mass culture).

Perhaps having a pre-WW2 section, and a post-WW2 section, with the former swinging towards Marxism proper, and the latter swinging towards Neo-Marxism and Post-Marxist schools of thought might be a way to negotiate that aesthetic distance from Marx, and the contradictions there in, landing the article more gracefully in modern times and theories.

But I also think that the title of the article - along with having a focus on The Frankfurt School, Birmingham School, and new left - renders anything I say somewhat moot. Because at any point someone might decide "Oh well, if The Frankfurt School didn't call themselves Neo-Marxists, and if people like Richard Hoggart specifically said he didn't like Marxism, then these topics can be pruned". Then we're left with a page just for orthodox Marxists who have commented on culture or done any sort of analysis of it... which would be quite far removed from modern culture, cultural studies, the new left turn, and other modern theories, and relegate the article to being a historical litany exclusionist of anyone who isn't a self-described Marxist.

Accordingly, here's how I see the "To Do List":

• Carry out the summaries of authors/ideas as you prescribe.
• Separate these into the pre-WW2 (Marxist), and post-WW2 (Neo-Marxist) sections
• Figure out our sidebars, so they more correctly remove the notion the that a) Trotsky was somehow the cause/catalyst of all these school, and that b) the entire page is about Marxists proper (eg. we need a sidebar that illustrates that theorists in the latter half of the page aren't necessarily Marxists).

Anyways, that's how I see us bringing an order to the page. But like you, I'm yet to find the motivation to perform these tasks, so progress might be slow. 117.102.146.108 (talk) 05:11, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

P.S I'm aware this is not a clean, clear, or accurate distinction I've suggested. The point is it's simple. It lends its self to a focus on The Frankfurt School and Gramsci as the founders of the theories of the culture industry and hegemony respectively (making them "the eye of the needle" so to speak), and it resolves some of the contradictions within writing this article. Gramsci and The Frankfurt School act as a sort of gateway between the two eras. Perhaps (although again, inaccurately) Gramsci is can be cast as sort of as the final product of Pre-WW2 era of theory, and The Frankfurt School are kind of the new hope, or the carriers of the flame across Europe to the current cultural hegemon (America). I think that has a certain poetic and narrative truth, even if the categories themselves won't line up perfectly. 117.102.146.108 (talk) 05:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this detailed response. The amount of work you had to do even just there, however, strengthens my suspicion that this article does not meet Wikipedia WP:NOTABILITY criteria for inclusion. Those sources ought to govern discussions about what we include. Editors are not supposed to have to make them up for themselves.

If we were to do a merge, the Trotsky material could be merged into whatever other article is deemed most appropriate, and the everything else of value should probably be integrated into Western Marxism, with the Birmingham School added in an "Influence" or "Legacy" section. (Currently it doesn't even have its own article!)

The location of the redirect could be determined with reference to the original rationale for the creation of this article.

Tagging the top author (without a block) and page creator, @Howard Alexander, and top editor, @Newimpartial. I know this has come up before, but might it be worth reconsidering? If not, could you point me to the sources that establish notability to justify this as a self-standing article? I don't see them in either the first or the current version.

I'm not trying to play Wikipedia cop here. It is just that it is difficult to develop the article without at least a few good sources defining the subject, its scope, and major concepts/theories/figures.

Cheers, Patrick (talk) 16:45, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

One source that directly links Western Marxism and the Birmingham School is Bottomore's Dictionary (2nd ed) entry on "Culture" (p. 128–30). Patrick (talk) 17:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

See now this is just confusing because you were just detailing Terry Eagleton's extended history of the cultural strain and turn within Marxism that led to the creation of The New Left.

It's my understanding that this is what this page is about - this is a subject more focused than just say Western Marxism as OBVIOUSLY a lot of Marxists from Western Marxism weren't involved in any of the work that came before The New Left, or simply, weren't focused on Capitalist culture.

If you go to the page on The New Left you can read some of what this page is about, like wise if you go to Cultural Studies you can read some of what this page is about, likewise if you go to the pages on Gramsci, The Frankfurt School, Freudo-Marxism, and The Birmingham School...

My understanding is that this page is supposed to provide what's not mentioned or included in those other pages, show the bridge/workings of how and what Marxist cultural analysis is, and demonstrate its history.

This is a historical/content blindspot on Wikipedia, and a hot topic within American culture currently. It's clear that Marxism, and Marxists have commented on culture, and that this led to, or acted as a pre-cursor to various strains of discourse (eg. The New Left, and Cultural Studies). The naming of the article seems tangential to this.

My understanding is that it became clear on Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory that there are quite numerous references to a "cultural Marxism" and so Wikipedia should document what areas and schools of thought those references discussed. So this page was created with that scope.

"Cultural Marxism" as a term however, has become more synonymous with a conspiracy theory, so WP:NEO dictates that we should avoid it as a title, and went to a more general title "Marxist cultural analysis".

I'll add here - all of these are MY assumptions about the page. There's no evidence for them other than how I read the events and assumptions I'VE MADE. So it changes nothing of what other people may have suggested. This is just my best guess as someone who wasn't involved with the creation of this page.

I may be completely wrong, and this page may mean something broader involving the entire history of Marxist theory - which is why I'm open to your suggestion of using the Eagleton TOC as a jumping off point. But either way I still think we need some sort of structure for the page, so WW2 seems as a good as any (a fairly common category for pages on 20th century Western European history). 117.102.146.108 (talk) 02:10, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and as to the sidebars, they are not page-specific, but their own templates designed to connect readers to related articles. You can edit them by clicking the little 'E' in the bottom right corner. I would strongly encourage that you check in on the talk before making any changes, however, because they will appear in every article that includes the template. Changes without consensus are likely to be promptly reverted. Patrick (talk) 16:52, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Patrick, the main reason for activity in this page's newsfeed, over the years, is people arriving from Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory and wondering why there isn't an article about "the real Cultural Marxism". The article is designed to include Marxist approaches to culture - which certainly is a notable topic, subject of monographs and anthologies, and those books pretty much invariably include content from Gramscian and Western Marxist traditions, and sometimes also Leninist, Marxist Humanist and Structuralist work.

While I can see the point in establishing better connections between this article and specific traditions, certainly a lot of Gramscian or Western Marxist scholarship is not about cultural analysis, and no disambiguation page is going to orient the reader to the contributions of, say, E.P. Thompson in this field. Newimpartial (talk) 11:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Newimpartial, I myself would be inclined to send misguided folks to the Frankfurt School and Western Marxism articles instead of creating an article just for them. After all, no one actively promoting a conspiracy theory is going to change their mind based on new information. Still, I do not want to make things any more difficult for all you brave and patient souls keeping the conspiracy article grounded in fact.

Perhaps there is a way to clarify the scope of this article instead of a merge and redirect. I find it confusing, and I would describe myself as a well-informed non-expert. It never occurred to me, for instance, that Trotsky did not belong; yet the IP editor makes a compelling case.

Is there any reason not to open it up with a title along the lines of "Marxist cultural theory"? There is definitely a literature on this, and no expert knowledge would be required to assess relevance. Disallowing Soviets, for instance, seems entirely arbitrary. (And there is little danger of them overshadowing the stuff by Lukács, Gramsci, and the traditions building upon their work—for the simple reason that previous Marxists, to my knowledge, did not not spend much time reflecting upon the superstructure, which was supposed to basically just follow from the base.)

Also, the current title seems to promise second-order scholarship reporting and reflecting upon the methodology of Marxist cultural analysis in action. But that is not what it delivers, and I don't think it should be. For even if we could find such a literature, it would be difficult to explain in a manner intelligible to an audience not already familiar with at least the general Marxist conception(s) of superstructure/ideology/culture/etc.

Your thoughts?

Cheers, Patrick (talk) 19:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and feel free to point me to any old discussions that might have already addressed the issue I raise. Patrick (talk) 19:40, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't really think the article scope issue has been addressed at length "at this end". And while I personally don't have anything against "Marxist cultural theory", I suspect that the scope of the discourse that this article "is meant to" include features a lot of analysis that is not adequately termed "theory" - the whole bottom-up tradition represented by E.P. Thompson would fall in that category, for example, and ought to be included here. So while this ought to be the survey article for Marxist scholarship about culture, I think "analysis" does better than "theory" as a descriptive title. And as I read it, the current title reflects an article talking about avowedly Marxist analysis of actually existing culture, and is not about the analysis of Marxist cultural projects as such - large as my personal appetite might be for scholarship on Constructivism and the Situationists, that isn't the point of this article here.

Also, I'll point out that there have been discussions of disambiguation options at the Conspiracy Theory page, and those discussions landed on the DAB notice pointing here. To summarize those discussions, most editors seem to agree that "cultural Marxism" when used as a phrase in scholarship carries many possible referents, so collapsing it to the Frankfurt School or Western Marxism would represent a kind of reification. Conspiracy theorists using the phrase might be engaged in caricature of Adorno, Marcuse, Angela Davis and/or Rudi Dutschke (the latter two being out of scope for this article) - but the article scope should be based on actual Marxist cultural scholarship, and not cater to such vagaries. Newimpartial (talk) 21:44, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay! If it's clear to those actively editing the article, that's good enough for me.

Should Trotsky be removed then? Patrick (talk) 21:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

To answer your question, I'd keep the discussion open for another week ago to see if other perspectives are presented, before making changes to the article. Newimpartial (talk) 23:23, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

No rush on my account. For what it's worth, however, absent good reason against it, I lean towards inclusionism. This would require rewriting (or probably just moving down in the lead with slight qualification/rewording) the opening sentence of the lead. Patrick (talk) 16:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, because he did not contribute to the school. TFD (talk) 02:37, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

What school? Patrick (talk) 14:25, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Marxist cultural analysis. TFD (talk) 14:26, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I await with bated breath the supporting literature. Patrick (talk) 14:34, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Again, if you think that this topic does not exist, get the article deleted. TFD (talk) 19:20, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Over on the Cultural Marxism conspiracy talk page[[2]], consensus seems to be that cultural Marxism doesn't need a standalone article, because it's substantially the same topic. And there seems to be no disagreement from sources that Marxist cultural analysis has also been referred to as "cultural Marxism". So shouldn't that be clarified in the intro to the article, as is common practice on Wikipedia, instead of waiting until the third paragraph? Stonkaments (talk) 20:38, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

That discussion indicates that there are only two topics, sure, but that's not the point of the text you stripped out. The two terms (even if one agrees that 'Cultural Marxism' was in wide use pre-1990, itself disputed) don't mean the same thing post-1990. That should be given context and explained, not collapsed into 'also referred to as'. MrOllie (talk) 20:48, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

There are no sources saying the term was ever in wide use; Bruane, the only secondary source we have on that usage, says that it was used very occasionally and that it specifically was not used in a pattern that connected it to the Frankfurt school in any coherent way. While we have a lot of cites in the section for random things people found when throwing "cultural marxism" into Google scholar, those are the only usages of the two words adjacent to each other that exist distinct from the conspiracy theory, at least as far as people could find during the previous discussions; their usage here to argue that it's a significant term is mostly WP:SYNTH already. --Aquillion (talk) 20:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• The usage isn't concrete or significant enough to be used as a see-also (the sources that we have here are literally the only ones that exist, and it's unclear that they all refer to the same topic.) As Bruane says, The term does appear very occasionally in Marxist literature, but there is no pattern of using it to point specifically to the Frankfurt School; truthfully, we should probably trim or remove the final paragraph based on that. Disregarding the WP:PRIMARY sources, what the sources really say is that the words "cultural" and "marxism" have appeared about seven times adjacent to each other throughout all the literature, without a single coherent definition and without being a properly defined term - that is to say that the people who use "cultural Marxism", small-c, to refer to this topic today are largely adherents of the conspiracy theory trying to falsely give the impression that it refers to something coherent or real. --Aquillion (talk) 20:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

  It seems that there were only five sources for the use of cultural Marxism in writings by critical theorists, the first being in 1978, long after the school's heyday. These sources would have been forgotten, except that the conspiracy theorists discovered them after they had coined their theory cultural Marxism and routinely trot them out to prove its a real thing. While "Marxist cultural analysis has also been referred to as "cultural Marxism"", it isn' signficant for inclusion in this article. TFD (talk) 23:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

At this point the article has become a coatrack. It now starts with Leon Trotsky (for some reason), being classed as a "main author" (of what?) along side Gramsci, The Frankfurt School, who specifically said they wanted to be "equidistant from Marxism, and Capitalism" [3], and The Birmingham School, which was in part founded by Richard Hoggart who expressed an aversion to Marxism [4]. The page has two side bars. It has tacked on sections at the end for Marxist-Leninism, and the cultural Marxism conspiracy theory. The title of the page is clearly too broad for what it was intended to be (what the lead section describes, or once described), and we now have too many editors trying to go in too many different directions with it.

In short it's become an unmanageable WP:coatrack and should probably be deleted. 101.115.130.228 (talk) 12:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)