Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murdoc Niccals

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎ to Gorillaz. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:02, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Murdoc Niccals (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Non-notable. References are WP:PRIMARY and profiles and social media. No real sourcing. Fails WP:SIGCOV. scope_creep^Talk 09:02, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Leaning keep. There are multiple non-primary sources in the article, and the article subject breaches an unusual situation of being a "member" of a band with real-life popularity, and being an entirely fictional construct. BD2412 T 13:59, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge all Gorillaz virtual musicians to the Gorillaz article. The conclusion of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russel Hobbs was to merge, and the same arguments apply here. It makes no sense to have articles for the other cartoon characters if Hobbs isn't represented. We should merge this topic and also Noodle (Gorillaz), since the 2D "biography" was merged last month. Binksternet (talk) 14:47, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment There was a merge on the other character article I reviewed: Noodle but it was removed later I think, between the time I first saw and looked at it again. I don't think the references are particularly decent. A lot of them are non-rs, significant numbers are profiles but in the first block there is not really any that is specific to the character. Some of them seem to referencing the videos. The band is quite old. If there was real coverage it would be present. The article was written across the 2020 so there should be significant coverage but there is not much in the first block. Ref 3 is a review which could be good but its discussion between band members talking about forming Gorillaz. That is probably WP:PRIMARY. scope_creep^Talk 15:29, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @Scope creep I don't see the merge tag? Seems it was just removed by @Rich Smith _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I removed the merge tag as it has been there since July with no discussion even started on the talk page - Rich^T|C|E-Mail 02:04, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Back: Talk:Noodle_(Gorillaz)#Proposed_merge_of_Gorillaz_with_Noodle_(Gorillaz) _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:19, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I notice there is now a Merge tag back on Noodle. scope_creep^Talk

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Fictional elements, Music, Comics and animation, and United Kingdom. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:38, 6 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge lots of primary and non-RS sources, and an awful lot not cited, which leaves mainly stuff cobbled together from press releases. Take that out and I'm not sure there's much left beyond "Murdoc is one of the Gorillaz and he's a bit edgy". BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 00:24, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge with Gorillaz I could not find any reliable sources that meaningfully discuss Murdoc Niccals. All of the sources that are currently in the article are either in-universe interviews or non-independent sources. There are a few about the band itself, but that is not enough to justify an article on one of its fictional members. ―Susmuffin ^Talk 03:01, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge per SIGCOV issues. It would be good to revisit Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Noodle (character). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment' @Piotrus:, @Susmuffin:, @BoomboxTestarossa:, @Rich Smith:, @Binksternet:, @BD2412: Folks, I've put a merge tag back for the Noodle article at Noodle (Gorillaz). Can you please trot across and make a comment if your interested in seeing a merge on that article. Its seems to be functionally the same as this article. Lots of primary references, press-release, PR, profiles with no real content referencing to satisfy WP:SIGCOV and WP:V. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 13:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm actually kinda surprised there's so little out there; mainstream sources seem to have almost immediately lost interest in the virtual band as anything other than Damon Albarn's side-thing and the reliable cult type sites have zero interest either, so there's all this complex backstory across liner notes, music videos and press releases which only a nub of the band's fans seem to care about. I'd see no problem with them all having a couple of paras on the main band page but honestly can't see the sources for individual articles right now, and unlike some crufty articles these ones have a clear redirect title. If someone writes a book on them in a few years or whatever we can always put it back. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 14:50, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I will look at it when I have a longer break in an hour. ―Susmuffin ^Talk 15:15, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep The Gorillaz article is already lengthy, at 144,000 bytes. It doesn't nead five articles worth of content merged into it. Seperate articles make reading easier, especially on mobile where an increasingly large number of people access Wikipedia. Garuda3 (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Length isn't a notability criteria in Afd. scope_creep^Talk 18:32, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is a criteria in deciding when to split an article, and an article being too long is a valid criteria for splitting even if the subsequent articles wouldn't meet notability requirements on their own. Garuda3 (talk) 21:11, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. See also WP:PLENTY _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:22, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Would some sort of List of Gorillaz characters page be a potential solution?

That said it's difficult to see what really needs to be said beyond a couple of sentences about the fictional members of thr band, who are at the end of the day a promotional gimmick.

Murdoc Nichols is the band's fictional whatever player. He is sinister. [A couple of citable facts about his design or whatever from secondary sources]. Swish swish bish.

Dunno, maybe I'm being a bit churlish because I like the tunes but have no interest in art school mockneys pretending they're cartoon characters, but I don't see the detailed fictional history of the band being worth THAT much space when most coverage of them only gives it passing lip service. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 19:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - I !voted keep in the Noodle AfD finding some scholarly sources, but a merge to a character page may work out. My comment there: There is some groundwork to build a reception section from out there. The GScholar links provide a few hits like "'The Digital Won't Let Me Go': Constructions of the Virtual and the Real in Gorillaz' 'Clint Eastwood'" published in Journal of Popular Music Studies and the book Pop Music and Easy Listening, where Johnson spends well over WP:100W (an essay, I know, but a measurement I find sufficient) discussing the "techno Orientalism" anthropomorphized by Noodle on pp 18-19. Also "Virtual pop: gender, ethnicity, and identity in virtual bands and vocaloid", apparently unpublished, but worth scholarly analysis for a PhD thesis that has been cited at least four times, where Stark dedicates the entire Chapter 5 to discussing Noodle outside of the mentions in the greater discussion. Also, GBooks gives a good hit in Chapter 9 "'Feel Good' with Gorillaz and 'Reject False Icons'" from The Oxford Handbook of Music and Virtuality where Rambarran has a 1.5-2 pg section dedicated to discussing Noodle outside the greater analysis on Noodle's part in the song.
  Now, I haven't actually revisited these articles, but I recall them covering all the band characters fairly well beyond just Noodle. Food for thought on a merged band character list. -2pou (talk) 21:25, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge: Almost all references in this article are either primary sources or interviews/articles about the band as a whole, with only trivial mentions of this character specifically. Not enough to substantiate significant coverage. FlotillaFlotsam (talk) 23:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.