Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Queens of Hip Hop

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sarahj2107 (talk) 14:34, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Queens of Hip Hop

Queens of Hip Hop (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This is a ridiculous page, utterly ridiculous. The intro says "A "Hip Hop Queen" is a term used to describe an individual in the Hip Hop industry who has transgressed the stereotypes presented to female and queer bodies.The Queen is no longer just a Ride-or-die chick or a baby mama, the Queen is a person who is in charge of their own agency. By being a Hip Hop Queen, the Queen has received the greatest title a female or queer individual in Hip Hop can receive."

What unsourced Hotep nonsense is this. Ogress 15:01, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Ogress, ThePlatypusofDoom, and DeviantAttitude: "Hotep nonsense"? Really? Their page needs work and I told them to provide a cited definition that is less their understanding and more a presentation of how the term is used in Hip Hop, with linked examples. Perhaps the term Hip Hop Queen is unfamiliar to these Wikipedia-using "culture warriors" because they don't pay attention to women in Hip Hop, which is the entire point of getting a page like this up and running. You might want to check books like Black Girlhood Celebration: Toward a Hip-hop Feminist Pedagogy, From Black Power to Hip Hop: Racism, Nationalism, and Feminism, Home with Hip Hop Feminism: Performances in Communication and Culture, and Home Girls Make Some Noise!: Hip-hop Feminism Anthology (there are so many more that you can find on your own) before you make comments about something you are clearly not knowledgeable about and/or resistant to. The tone of the critiques are not appreciated nor are they helpful. Also @Wasted Time R: Thank you for your advocacy. The point of the project is to empower them to share their new knowledge, not discourage them. --JustJess PhD (talk) 14:01, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - original research, synthesis, and an essay with extensive, unsourced editorializing: "Las Krudas ask for respect, recognition, and critical representations of people from the African descent throughout their music. As an all-women group it is ironic that their most popular music politicize menstruation, celebrates the bodies of black and fat women, and advocate the love for women and between women. This message has been hard for this group to get across because of the male-centeredness of the Cuban hip hop movement. As a result of personal and professional reasons Las Krudas decided to leave Cuba... They recognized and confronted the absurdity of the noticeable inequalities, and social justice-inspired messages that always thrived on the politics and aesthetic differences." GABHello! 21:31, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Per WP:OR. The term isn't widely used or even used at all, NN at the very least. ThePlatypusofDoom (Talk) 21:50, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. /wiae /tlk 22:01, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@JustJess PhD: Yes, but this is not a widely used term. Although I do agree that women are underrepresented in Wikipedia, please add citations. You may want to consult with WP:WikiProject Women. My opinion (I can't stand hip-hop, support women) has no matter in this. I am trying to be as neutral as possible. Although spreading knowledge is important, Wikipedia has standards for this type of thing. Also, it doesn't matter if you are an expert in a topic or not. Although experts are normally better at editing in their expertise, Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Please read WP:NOTESSAY and WP:OR. ThePlatypusofDoom (Talk) 14:07, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak keep - it needs a lot of work. Let's take a look at the sources used in the article and what they support. is an interesting look at the role of women in hip-hop culture, but it doesn't use the term "Queens of Hip Hop" at all. It discusses Queen Latifah a little, and it quotes a Nikki Minaj song which generically refers to women as "Queens", but the article itself does not discuss queens of hip hop as a concept. The Minaj song lyrics may provide support that the concept exists as a sort of primary source, but if that type of thing is what the article is relying on it is original research and thus not appropriate for Wikipedia. is more promising. If you have access to Project Muse, it's accessible online. It does have extensive treatment the "queen" as a concept specifically referring to a certian type of woman in black American culture. is about an event for female break dancers. Most of the other articles focus on specific individuals, such as biographies of Beyonce and Queen Latifah. Many of the other sources do not have the word "Queen" in them at all. In short, the only source that actually supports the article is Johnson. If someone can find more sources like the Johnson article, they could craft an acceptable article on this concept, but this iteration of the article isn't it.
Looking for more sources in line with the Johnson article, I found . Also, looks promising but the relevant portion is not available in the online preview, so I'm not sure.
Basically, I'm only seeing the one source that really treats this as a concept, that said, the searching is hard because you keep getting results of people calling themselves "Queen" as part of their name, which then discuss the person (i.e. Queen Latifah) and not the concept. I don't want to filter those out with an advanced search because any discussion of the concept would necessarily include mentions of the people, so it's a catch-22.
TL:DR - The article needs to be fundamentally re-written to focus on the concept of a "Queen" in hip-hop culture. It needs multiple sources that describe this concept, not just biographies of notable women in that culture, and not just treatises on the role of women in that culture more broadly. There is only one such source currently cited in the article, although I have provided a couple promising book sources. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 16:08, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Now That's a Bad Bitch!: The State of Women in Hip-Hop I The Hampton Institute". Hamptoninstitution.org. Retrieved 2016-04-12.
  2. ^ Johnson, Leola. "The Spirit is Willing and So Is the Flesh: The Queen in Hip Hop Culture" Noise and Spirit: The Religious and Spiritual Sensibilities of Rap Music. Ed. Tony Pinn. New York University Press, 2003.
  3. ^ Walker, Chris (2016-04-08). "Queenz of Hip Hop Is Bringing Up the Next Generation of Female Artists". Westword.com. Retrieved 2016-05-03.
  4. ^ Forman, Murray; Neal, Mark Anthony (2004). That's the Joint!: The Hip-hop Studies Reader. Psychology Press. pp. 265–268. ISBN 9780415969192. Retrieved 11 May 2016.
  5. ^ Pough, Gwendolyn (1 Dec 2015). Check It While I Wreck It: Black Womanhood, Hip-Hop Culture, and the Public Sphere. Northeastern University Press. pp. 127, 134. ISBN 9781555538545. Retrieved 11 May 2016.
@ONUnicorn, JustJess PhD, P&S, ThePlatypusofDoom, GeneralizationsAreBad, DeviantAttitude, Wiae, and Wasted Time R: I am the nominating editor and I am a member of WikiProject Women and WikiProject Women in Red. I think it's really important to add women and coverage of women to Wikipedia.
That being said, this is fundamentally problematic in that it posits the existence of a subset of women that does not appear to exist. Yes, "hotep". "The Queen is no longer just a Ride-or-die chick or a baby mama, the Queen is a person who is in charge of their own agency. By being a Hip Hop Queen, the Queen has received the greatest title a female or queer individual in Hip Hop can receive." What the actual hell. I'm going to actually quote the ride-or-die chick article to contrast: "Historically there have been four stereotypes of Black female sexuality, the Jezebel, mammy, matriarch, and welfare mother. Layli D. Phillips reinterpreted these categories and claimed the modern day hip-hop equivalent of these gender-role scripts are the diva, gold digger, freak, dyke, gangster bitch, sister savior, earth mother, and baby mama." In contrast to that article, Queens of Hip Hop reifies that category of diva on a Wikipedia page rather than bringing an examination to it. Classic hotep: 1. calls women "females"; 2. calls women "queens" 3. says this is the greatest title for women. All I need an inspirational photo of ancient Egypt to write it over and I can send it to Hotep Of The Day. It's a sexist affirmation rather than a wikipedia article about a phenomenon.
The article on "ride or die chick" - which appears also problematic but not nominate-for-deletion (in my humble opinion; Alt-Right is currently NfD, so who knows) - actually brings in RS; "Black feminist scholar Treva Lindsey claims the ride or die chick is a challenge to a dominant narrative in hip hop that privileges homosocial male relationships and undermines heterosexual romantic bonds between men and women." It describes the phenomenon. Video vixen begins, "A video vixen (also hip hop honey or video girl) is a female model who appears in hip-hop-oriented music videos. The video vixen image has become a staple and a nuanced form of sex work within Black popular music; especially within the genre of hip-hop. Many video vixens are aspiring actors, singers, dancers, or professional models. Women from various cultures have been portrayed either as fragile, manipulative, fetishistic, or submissive within contemporary music lyrics, videos, concert and movie soundtracks, although this is not universal, as demonstrated by the archetypal Ride-or-die chick."
Second, I'm not even clear that the notion of "queens of hip-hop" actually exists as a pre-existing term, although I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong. You do hear "Queen Bey" but a general discussion of queens? Maybe I am missing it. *shrug* Ogress 18:55, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.