Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 6

July 6

Category:Sep 2007 Jewish Christianity editorial disputes

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Merge (non-admin closure) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Sep 2007 Jewish Christianity editorial disputes to Category:Jewish Christianity editorial disputes

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT. This category has only 1 entry. Estopedist1 (talk) 19:59, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. The parent category may be nominated too. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per Marco, would also support nomming the parent. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:40, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Arab

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 18#Category:Arab

Category:Arabs from al-Andalus

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Keep (non-admin closure) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Arabs from al-Andalus to ~~Category:People from al-Andalus of Arab descent~~Category:People from al-Andalus of Arabian descent

Nominator's rationale: rename, we use the format "of fooish descent" throughout modern and pre-modern times. I can't quite see why we would not apply the same format to a medieval category. A counter-argument might be that the expression "of Arab descent" was not used in contemporary medieval sources, but Christian sources often used "moors" and we have depracated that term for categorization. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:52, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Question Isn't Fooian people of Barian descent meant to indicate two countries/nationalities? "Arab" is neither. It is most commonly used for native speakers of the Arabic language. Egyptian, Libyan, Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan etc., those are nationalities. Arab is not. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of Arab descent would, in this case, mean descending from people in the Arabian peninsula. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:10, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle Okay, but (A) wouldn't mean we should call them "of Arabian descent"? and (B) WP:COP-HERITAGE says The heritage of grandparents is never defining and rarely notable. Once we are 2 generations away from people who lived in the Arabian Peninsula, their descent is WP:NONDEFINING and shouldn't be categorised. So I'm not sure this category has a future. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:07, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Nederlandse Leeuw: "Arabian" is a good point. With respect to B, do you suggest to keep it as is, or do you suggest to delete? Marcocapelle (talk) 07:19, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  @Marcocapelle Well, I would suggest to Delete, but only because I think ethnicity is WP:NONDEFINING for things like dynasties (just like language families). Child Category:Banu Hud, for example, is also in Category:Arab dynasties, which I - at least at the moment - would delete.
  
  But at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 2#Category:Berber dynasties, you've said you would Keep things like Category:Berber dynasties, Category:Iranian Muslim dynasties, and Category:Kurdish dynasties. If it is Kept - which is possible - then I think Category:People from al-Andalus by ethnicity needs another subcategory for Category:Berbers from al-Andalus. As I said at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 5#Category:11th-century rulers in Al-Andalus (which led to this CfR), There was an increasing influx of Berbers into al-Andalus, and we know that many of them became monarchs of their own taifa or other state. So it would only be "fair" to categorise Berbers from al-Andalus as well, then. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:32, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  @Marcocapelle I see you've altered the target to "of Arabian descent", which I welcome per (A), but per (B) WP:COP-HERITAGE saying The heritage of grandparents is never defining and rarely notable, I think most people and subcategories should then be removed from this category, and we might end up with a completely empty category.
  
  Example: Ibn Arabi was born in Murcia, present-day Spain in 1165, to ‘Ali ibn Muḥammad, [who] served in the Army of Ibn Mardanīsh, the ruler of Murcia. So his father was probably also born in Spain, perhaps in North Africa, but most probably not in Arabia: His paternal ancestors emigrated very early to Andalusia, probably during the second wave of the Muslim conquest of the Iberian Peninsula. I don't know when this "second wave" was, but probably centuries before 1165 (the "first wave" would have been Muslim conquest of Spain c. 710–780). About his mother: Ibn ʿArabī's maternal ancestry was North African Berber. So not born in Arabia either. Do you see the problem? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:23, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  This may well be an exception to the rule that more than one generation back is not defining. Being in born in a family that originated from the Arabian peninsula provided extra status regardless of how many generations ago. Marcocapelle (talk) 12:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  WP:COP-HERITAGE says The heritage of grandparents is never defining (emphasis by me). I'm not convinced that, if we are even allowed to make an exception (the word "never" doesn't really seem to sympathise with that idea), we should do so in this case. It seems like special pleading to me, sorry. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:30, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Nothing wrong with "Arabs", which was a very important category to the people of al-Andalus. See Göran Larsson, Ibn García's Shuʿūbiyya Letter: Ethnic and Theological Tensions in Medieval al-Andalus (Brill, 2003). Srnec (talk) 16:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose to the use of "Arabian", as not all Arab tribes hailed from the Arabian Peninsula. The proposed "Arab descent" alternative is fine, although longer and less readable. Al-Andalusi (talk) 20:45, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "of Arab descent" and "of Arabian descent". As I understand it, these were simply people who lived in al-Andalus and were native speakers of Andalusi Arabic, regardless of their ancestry. Similarly, I think we should create Category:Berbers of Al-Andalus for native Berber/Tamazight speakers living in Al-Andalus, regardless of their ancestry. WP:COP-HERITAGE is clear that the subject's ancestry is irrelevant from grandparents onwards, so only the subject's parents matter, not whether the subject's greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandparents were born on the Arabian Peninsula to Arabic-speaking parents, or born in North Africa to Berber/Tamazight-speaking parents. Incidentally, if we think that the Arabs and Berbers of Al-Andalus were too mixed to be neatly separated, "Arab-Berber" is an alternative term we could use to group both. Ibn Arabi is an example of an Arab-Berber: his father was an Arab, his mother was a Berber, so he was a mix of both. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 06:02, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.