Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker

Chris Turners archive states "The first Irish Professional Championship was held in 1947 and was won by Jackie Rea. Right up until 1982 the championship was conducted on a challenge basis with the champion deciding who his challenger would be. Jackie lost one challenge, to Jack Bates in 1952, but regained the title almost straight away and beat off all subsequent challenges until he came up against Alex Higgins in 1972."

Having had access to various Newspaper archives, I have been trying to research results from the Irish Professional Championship to try and ensure we have as full a record as possible (thus removing the 'various challenges' text in the results table).

Interestingly I've found that Chris Turners Archive to be wrong on this. Being the only Irish professional snooker player at the time, Jackie Rea was declared the first Irish Professional Snooker Champion without playing a match in November 1952. The 1947 tournament that Chris mentions was actually the All-Ireland Amateur Championship, in which Jackie Rea beat Jack Bates in the final.

In fact, Jackie Rea was only ever challenged for the title twice. The first, in 1956, was by professional billiards player, Jack Bates, who Jackie Rea beat comfortably (37-26). With the second challenge coming from Alex Higgins in 1972. This was due to the fact that there were no other professional snooker players from Ireland during Rea's reign.

Chris Turner's archive also states that Jackie Rea lost a challenge to Jack Bates in 1952, however, this was in the semi-finals of the All-Ireland Amateur Championship , which took place prior to the declaration of Jackie Rea as Irish Professional Snooker Champion.

For the 1972 challenge, there was talk, in 1970, of a qualifying match between Alex Higgins and Paddy Morgan to see who should be allowed to challenge Jackie Rea, however this did not materialise, with Alex Higgins left as the lone challenger.

I currently have a draft version in a sandbox here. If everyone is happy, I have no problem in this being used on the actual page. Steveflan (talk) 11:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've also noticed errors in areas of the Turner archive, but if there is only an absence of match reports in the newspaper archives that in itself is not enough to declare the Turner source wrong. Unless there is a reliable source that challenges Turner or verifies the statement there was a lack of professional players/only two title challenges, then making that statement falls under WP:OR. I also doubt it was contested every year, but I think the Turner source is all we have for now. Andygray110 (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first reference on my sandbox page is from the Belfast Telegraph giving the story of how the Irish Professional Snooker Championship came about, thus proving Turner's original assertion that the championship started in 1947 is wrong as well as the 'fact' that Rea lost the tile in 1952 - which is impossible seeing as he wasn't declared Professional Champion until after the match in question took place.

I know of at least 1 other article in the Belfast Telegraph, prior to the first challenge match, which mentioned the lack of professional snooker players in Ireland (North and South) which is why the first challenge came from a billiards player, and if memory serves, there is another article (again in the Belfast Telegraph) that mentions only 2 challenges. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to the British Newspaper Archive, hence I can't reference them.

Whilst I fully understand that making a statement due to a lack of match reports, etc can be classed as WP:OR, the fact that Rea was the only professional snooker player in Northern Ireland during this time, and that the Belfast Telegraph covered (almost) every match and tour he undertook (including numerous challenge matches against Alex Higgins and others), on the balance of probabilities, I find it very hard to imagine that they would miss a Professional Championship match. Steveflan (talk) 13:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 6 November 1952 Belfast Telegraph article is a great find, Steveflan. I had a look through The Billiard Player for 1952 and found no record of matches for the NI professional snooker title; by April 1952 Bates was already in Scotland and had applied to enter the Scottish championship. I've amended the Jackie Rea article. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:David Gilbert (snooker player)#Requested move 2 December 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 04:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I’d like to propose dividing large tournament result tables into smaller sections.

Currently, the tables can be scrolled, but on a PC, it’s not immediately apparent that they are scrollable (the bottom scroll bar is far outside the visible area). Dividing the data into four smaller tables would make it easier to edit and view the information.

I’ve already implemented this solution on another wiki, and I believe it could be beneficial for users of other languages as well ;)

• Compare very large and hard to scroll: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Williams_(snooker_player)#Performance_and_rankings_timeline
• With more manageable and easy to scroll: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_J._Williams#Wyst%C4%99py_w_turniejach_w_karierze

Does that sound good?

Best regards, Nux (talk) 01:02, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would support anything that makes these pages more easy to navigate. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:25, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good - like the idea to hide the performance table legend by default. Far easier to navigate. Andygray110 (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing this isn't a change we can automate, right? It's a manual process? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Hm... 300+ pages... probably worth automating this. I already have some semi-automatic script, so I think I can try to do this en masse. It should be doable, as long as the tables are similar enough. Nux (talk) 19:48, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect it's nearer 500, I would have thought that all articles within have some sort of setup for this. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:59, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Non-snooker editor but I would like everyone to take a look at WP:DTT before commenting on the method that is currently used as opposed to the method that is more navigable. It’s a solution but it’s a solution that has been around to help support users who use screen readers or who are visually impaired. Specific topics: MOS:COLHEAD and MOS:TABLECAPTION (for legend captions). cc: @Andygray110, @Lee Vilenski, @Nux Thanks, Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 12:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’d also support the removal of the 15% downgrade in size (makes it hard to read) and changing the gray text to black. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 12:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't support removal of size downgrade, it would make the tables even harder to navigate. 15% reduction is fine per MOS:SMALL. Andygray110 (talk) 18:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I did a contrast test and it seems like we can keep the small font... as long as background colors are modified. Modified page test (invalid contrast before background changes). Test page here: User:Nux/test snooker player timeline. The problems are links which are relatively light (#3366CC) and so background in cells have to be even lighter. Nux (talk) 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That’s not the issue I mentioned, I mentioned the use of gray, particularly #555555 ( ), text instead of black test which is hard to see at a small font without zooming in. If it was black, like what is shown on Mink Nutcharut, it’ll be better to read. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 16:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Cowboygilbert that gray is not a problem. It gives great contrast of 7.45:1 which is fine even for the most strict WCAG AAA. See e.g.: https://webaim.org/resources/contrastchecker/ Nux (talk) 17:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Again, you need to re-read what I wrote. I said with the small font, it’s hard to see. The contrast checker uses a 12 point normal size font while the font used the tables should be around 9-10 point font. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 17:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should look at this test:

https://wave.webaim.org/report#/https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Nux/test_snooker_player_timeline&oldid=1269628779

Contrast of link over white is 5.36:1. The gray you mention (#555555) is actually darker then the link color (7.45:1). Again. In this table there are much, much worse colors due to using links in the table. Font size is the same for all cells so that is not a problem. Nux (talk) 17:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we do need to meet DTT. My support is on the basis of turning it into more than one table. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

From what I recall, and I did some work with WCAG, more sections are good. Screen reader users typically navigate using sections, so I think sections should be even better than just splitting tables mentioned in DTT. Nux (talk) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

All in support for any changes to improve the Performance Ranking table, however just like the last time this was proposed [mid-2024, by myself no less on a slightly different format], nobody makes the change and thus nothing ends up changing. If you intend to propose the idea, then I'd rather it just be done under the "Be Bold" rules, rather than waiting for wider community support in every new discussion, because there's been plenty of support -- directly or implied -- over the years for improving the table, but the action hasn't been taken. --CitroenLover (talk) 18:29, 28 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

A report in the September 1995 issue of Pot Black magazine says that Allison Fisher defeated Dieter Johns (187 points to 20; including a 107 break), Peter Ebdon, and then John Parrott 254-116 in the final, to retain the Texaco International Charity Snooker Challenge title. Jimmy White, Steve Davis, Terry Griffiths, Willie Thorne, amateur Mark Davis (or Davies) were the other participants in 1995. Len Ganley was the referee and David Vine presented the prizes? Has anyone seen this event in any other sources? Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:42, 26 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]